REITs Demystified – Dividend Machines, Market Signals & What CRE Investors Miss

David Auerbach, Chief Investment Officer at Hoya Capital Real Estate, joins hosts Manus Clancy and Martha Coacher for a deep dive into the misunderstood world of REITs. Often dismissed as “boring” or overlooked next to market movers like Apple, Nvidia, or even crypto, REITs are in fact powering much of the CRE ecosystem. Auerbach explains why misconceptions, like REITs being purely interest rate sensitive, miss the bigger picture of tenant contracts, long-term income streams, and transparency that other real estate investors should watch.

The conversation spans REIT performance since the Fed’s rate-hiking cycle began in 2022 (underperforming the S&P by 50%), the surprising rebound in senior housing, the structural demand for rentals amid unaffordable home prices, and why data centers and towers now make up 25% of REIT indexes while office is just 4%. Auerbach also outlines the “graduating class” of REITs, from the Ivy-bound aristocrats to the troublemakers in the penalty box, and why active management matters for spotting warning signs.

Listeners will hear why Berkshire Hathaway’s quiet moves into REITs matter and which market signals Auerbach watches (hint: the 10-year Treasury vs. Fed Funds). Packed with insights, data, and forward-looking signals, this episode is essential listening for anyone navigating CRE investing in a volatile market.

00:55 Understanding REITs in CRE

04:14Macro Shifts & REIT Resilience

07:44 Data Centers, Housing & Everyday Use

11:00 Spotting Opportunities in REIT Trends

16:45 Active Management Levers: Dividends & Leverage

28:26 Market Signals and Future Outlook

Have questions for the pod team? Send them to Podcast@LightBoxRE.com. 

www.lightboxre.com

Transcript

The CRE Weekly Digest by LightBox

Episode 60: REITs Demystified – Dividend Machines, Market Signals & What CRE Investors Miss

August 22, 2025

Martha Coacher: This is the CRE Weekly Digest by LightBox, a firm transforming the commercial real estate landscape by connecting every step of the CRE process with comprehensive tools and data. I'm Martha Coacher with Manus Clancy. Dianne Crocker is out this week. Today we're joined by David Auerbach, chief Investment Officer of Hoya Capital, and he's a REIT specialist and educator.

David has spent his career. Bridging the gap between Wall Street and Main Street, focusing on helping investors and advisors understand the value volatility and strategic importance of real estate investment trusts in the commercial real estate ecosystem and beyond. In this episode, we go beyond the headlines and market tickers to unpack REIT's role in CRE strategy.

We'll explore investor psychology, transparency gaps, and how this asset class is evolving in the face of macro volatility. Welcome, Dave. 

David Auerbach: Thanks, Martha. Great to be here. 

Martha Coacher: Let's start a little bit with some education and demystification, why REITs matter in cre. Let's start with, REITs are everywhere in cre, but they're often misunderstood or overlooked.

What's the biggest misconception about REITs right now? 

David Auerbach: Wow, that's, we could spend a whole hour just on that one topic alone. You know, I would say number one, that REITs are interest rate sensitive. I think that since we use REIT owned properties 24 7, as in this conversation right now is basically being facilitated by a REIT that advisors and investors focus on the headlines and they don't peel back the layers of the onion to the company level.

Remember that REITs are just one tiny little percentage of the world of commercial real estate. Yet when we're bombarded with these headlines from CNBC and Bloomberg and all these other media sources talking about real estate, wall of debt coming due interest rate sensitivity, et cetera, that we're not going further into the company level to really see how the companies are operating in this landscape of commercial real estate.

And I think that's a huge opportunity to educate where it's, here's the misconception and here's the reality. 

Martha Coacher: Why do you think public REITs get so little air timed compared to the stocks that we see, apple, Nvidia, even crypto? 

David Auerbach: That's a great question and I, I think the simple answer is REITs are boring.

You think about the actual contract length in place with tenants and landlord, there's short term to long term. When I say short term, the shortest contract that's out there is a one night hotel rental from one of a hotel REITs versus. A ground lease by a company like Safehold, which could be up to 99 years.

So I think that. Investors get lost in the noise when they see the day-to-day headlines and don't realize that most of these guys have lease terms that are in place of several years or more with rent escalators tied to CPI or other economic factors that an analyst or a portfolio manager can basically kind of gauge the income stream at the property level and kind of see how it floats through to the bottom line.

Look, wheats are dividend income machines. My job. From where I sit, I have no control over the stock price of my underlying constituents. I have no control over the stock price of my publicly traded ETFs. What we can't control is the narrative as well as the dividend that these companies are paying and how much we pay out to our shareholders.

By and large, if a company is trading at $20 a share and pays a $2 a share a dividend a year, in 10 years, you've recouped the principle. Off the stock. And then any upside that you get on the stock is basically the cherry on top of the sundae. So when you think about dividend income machines like a realty income, the monthly dividend that's paid hundreds and hundreds of months of dividends that consistently are increased, think about the 25 to 50 year cycle of how much an investor can earn in dividend income by owning real estate and properties we use every single day.

That's the opportunity. 

Manus Clancy: So David, people tend to think of REITs as very staid, solid dividends month after month, as you just referred to. But over the last 10 years, we've seen some big macro events, some big demographic changes, some big industry changes that have been big tailwinds for some REITs, and in some cases big headwinds for REITs.

How does the individual investor take advantage? Of the changes that may benefit them and sidestep the problems that may hurt the value of a REIT or threaten its dividend? It's a 

David Auerbach: great question. Manus, uh, actually we spent a lot of time focused on that, and I think this, it first starts. Frankly, kind of with some of the stuff that we do at Hoya Capital, 'cause we start research first.

I think that's the differentiator of how we approach this versus a lot of the other shops is we're research first, so we cover all of these companies. In the warmup to this, we were talking about previous stories in the industry of like a Washington Prime group or a CBL companies that are, let's say, over levered, overextended, not covering their dividend necessarily.

You know, there's. Sometimes some warning flags that are being flown in the sky about some stories that are out there. But if you use COVID as an example, look at what happened during COVID where we saw this massive wave into housing, single family rentals, folks leaving apartments, buying the house for the first time.

Well, why said funds rate was at zero. Mortgage rates were at what, two and three. It was free money out there basically. Where are we today? And I think where we are today plays into the general malaise about REITs. If you look at the last three years, going back to March 22, when the hiking cycle started, the REITs have underperformed the s and p by over 50%, which is almost unprecedented.

So one of two things has to happen, or a combination thereof. The REIT sector has to rally. The s and p has to sell off, or some combination of both, but some stories or some sectors, as you mentioned, have been able to weather that storm very well. A great sector to highlight is senior housing. Look at what happened at healthcare during COVID and how, I guess the word would be taboo, was to talk about senior housing because of what was happening in a lot of those communities during COVID.

Fast forward to today, the hottest sector in the world of REITs and real estate is senior housing. Another example is housing in general. If you go back to COVID time, multiple bidders on properties going above asking price here in Dallas homes, selling literally the same day. Fast forward. 30 year mortgage is what?

Six and change near seven home prices are up through the roof right now. Home affordability is out the window. What does that mean? Single family rentals have been the place to be. Apartments continue to be in demand regardless of the NOI growth. And I had an interesting conversation with a publicly traded read about this just last week, about how headline sensitive.

Investors, advisors and portfolio managers are on the NOI number versus not thinking about the net income and dividend side of the equation, if that makes sense. So, you know, when you talk about data centers as an example, look, we're using a data center to facilitate this conversation today. How many of these virtual conversations are happening across the globe right at this moment?

And the answer is. A lot. And by the way, it's more than you think. And because of that, at this moment, there's only two publicly traded data center REITs that are frankly earning the revenue off of these conversations that shareholders are earning dividend income from. All of these conversations that are happening.

To put a bow on it, macro, micro, big news, little news, tariffs, inflation, or not. The story continues to hum along. The properties continue to be used every single day. The fundamentals are relatively sound by and large across the 200 publicly traded companies that it's business as usual, a good management team.

Forget REITs, Nvidia. Microsoft, pick your favorite company. A good management team puts the blinders on and focuses on operations. At the end of the day, the investor wants the management team to do three things, basically, grow revenues, cut expenses, grow profits. The investor wants the company really just to do four things at the end of the day.

Grow revenues, grow profits grow, the annual guidance, how much you're gonna earn every year, and grow the dividend that applies to every single company on Wall Street. So if I can grow all of those four things, regardless of what's going on with inflation, recession, interest rates, tenure, treasury, movement, whatever you assume the company's on solid footing, and that's our job.

Look, the reed in, and I use this example when we talked recently, the re industry is like your graduating class in high school, and the same function applies today even to 10, 20 years ago when the reed industry grew up. The Reed Industries is your graduating class of high school. You got the top 10%, the valedictorians, the salutatorian, the students that go to Harvard and Yale that are in the s and p 500, or they're the dividend aristocrats.

The bottom 10%, the troublemakers, the bullies, the guys in detention, the guys that graduate with a D, the REITs that are over levered, overextended, can't cover their dividends. There's 170 students and companies that are in the middle of that curve that don't get the attention that fly under the radar, but what's really moving the portfolios, that's where the value in good managers comes in.

It's finding the best in breed of those 170 for different reasons. And Cara portfolio that's diversified, making up the top 10%. The middle 80% and potentially the bottom 10% from the yield side, assuming it's a DI minimis 

Manus Clancy: exposure. So put your head into where you were in 2015 or where an investor might have been in 2015.

So investor A says, I want Reed exposure. They look at the REIT world and they have diversified exposure across. 20 REITs, let's say. However, somebody investor B says, I see what's happening. I am gonna avoid the shopping mall REITs. I see them starting to fail. I see lower foot traffic, I see lower sales as e-commerce takes off, and I'm gonna back up the truck as it pertains to industrial REITs.

Those people would have, I should say, yes, industrial Warehouse, logistics Center, REITs, those people would have outperformed, right, how would've backed up the Brinks truck, literally. Right? Exactly. So how would one have. Obtained enough knowledge in 2015 to play out that strategy. Alright, that's 

David Auerbach: a great question.

You know, th this is perfect because this goes back to some of the stuff we've been talking about earlier about how the industry has evolved over time. When you go back to 2015, using that example, data centers and towers were still kind of in the early stages of the REIT industry. It wasn't until. When I say recently, as in the past five, 10 years or so, that the big institutional investors embraced what we call the infrastructure REITs, the data centers, the towers.

It was a long time for mainstream REIT investors and generalist guys to accept those uh, companies. I have an interesting factoid here from my partner, and if you talk about data centers and cell towers. If you market cap weight those today, they are more than 25% of the average REIT index that's out there.

But office REITs that tried and true sector that's got so many more players is only 4% of that index. But it's that 4% of the index, the office REITs that are garnering all the headlines that are out there, work from home and all this stuff. Like I said, the most famous REIT over your shoulder here, you know, at the Empire State Building, we see these properties every single day.

But data centers and towers as an example, you know, nobody really knew the impact that it was having. So to answer your question, I think it kind of boils down to the ETF wrap burn. I'm not trying to cop out. This is where being a first mover using that Warren Buffet logic kind of comes into play. Back in 2015, we actually saw some of the first thematic REIT ETFs being launched on the market, and the first three thematic REIT ETFs were industrial towers and data centers and retail.

Now, the retail one, I think fell by the wayside, the industrial ETF. Has several hundred million in management. The first data center rate ETF generated hundreds of millions of dollars of management as well as copycat funds that we're trying to capture a piece of it. So I think you can kind of look to the ETF to see that, how that evolves a little bit.

But that's the goal of any REIT management team that's out there. And the investors themselves is. Where is that puck going? What is the next sector that's going to be the next towers and data centers? And the cool thing about the public REITs, frankly, is that transparency angle. You know what these companies are doing?

They tell you what they're doing. Here's how many leases we signed. Here's how much we were able to grow our base rent. Here's this, here's that. Here's our dividend stream, here's our debt stack. They're so transparent, telling you the state of affairs inside the company that what makes Nvidia buy to me makes it a hold to you and makes it a sell to Martha.

No two investors are alike. Now, let's take it a little bit. Go a little bit further. What market? What's the next Raleigh, what's the next Austin, what's the next Nashville? Where's, where's that puck going? Where's that next migration trend going to be? Is it gonna be Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Omaha, Nebraska, Oklahoma City?

The companies are trying to figure that out. But here's what we do know, again, break it down on a sector by sector basis. We don't have enough affordable housing out there for the average consumer, meaning we're gonna see more rentals, we're gonna see more apartments until your favorite home builder issues, what I call a light product.

Here's the Toll Brothers home. Here's Toll Brothers light. That home costs 800,000. That light product costs 400,000, whatever. It's until we make things more affordable, we're gonna continue to plot along as things are going. And office is a great example that plays into that. Because office was dead. Oh my gosh.

The office is dead. We're never going back to the office. I don't need to tell you how many stories are coming out every single week. Talking about, we're going back to the office. We're using the office work from home though it's here to stay. It's still a slice 

Manus Clancy: of the work experience. So let me stick on this a little bit.

When I think of REITs. I think of the old term widows and orphans, right? You want widows and orphans in dividend paying stocks whose dividend is secure, right? An at TA Pfizer or something like that where there's no volatility, or at least in their mind, right? And historically I think that as a REIT tourist, which I have to admit that I am, that would be my mindset, but we've already established that.

Active management, not at the company level, but at the portfolio management level will produce better returns. If you could have side-stepped Washington Prime and CBL and poured or overemphasized industrial, you would've done better in the 2015 to 2020 period. You might say the same thing for office. If you had said, I'm gonna deemphasize office now that COVID has started for a couple years and overemphasize again, industrial, you would've outperformed.

So does REIT really need. A a, an active management strategy for the individual investor? 

David Auerbach: That's a good question, and I still think the answer is yes. Again, kind of covering what we do at Hoya, when you go to the company level and actually focus on all these companies, because their portfolios do evolve over time, their market exposures change over time.

Austin's a great example. What was the hottest place a couple years ago is now almost like. A place to avoid in some investors and companies eyes. So it's really important to kind of focus on what's going on at the company level. You know, as I like to say, REITs are boring and boring is good. REITs are the tortoise and the tortoise and the hare of your portfolio.

Whereas a buddy likes to say the REITs are the BST of the ship. It's what keeps your ship aflo. It's this boring sector geared towards widows and orphans, as you've referred to, that allows you to play Nvidia and Apple and single stock future ETFs and some of the riskier products that are out there.

REITs are dividend income machines. I have no control over my stock price, but we could control the dividend payout. Another example is leverage. You know, you go back to 2005, 2006, when I was at Green Streete, Greentree put out this publication to the entire industry saying, Hey guys, you need to cut your debt.

You need to go to sub 50% leverage on your balance sheets. This debt is going to kill you guys if you keep going down this road. Response. The lines blowing up at Green Street Home Office in Newport from management teams or emails. Are you crazy? We are not gonna do that. No way that that's gonna happen in the reed industry.

Fast forward many years later, how many REITs are sub 50% leverage or more? And the answer is pretty much all of them. But again, it goes back to that right side of the curve as we talked about the bullies and the troublemakers that just like you had the Washington Primes and CBLs back then. You still got some of those companies today that are in that same boat.

I don't wanna highlight anybody in particular, but it's not hard to figure out which of the REITs are in the penalty box for those exact same reasons. 

Manus Clancy: Well, I'm glad you prefaced your answer, or I should say finished your answer. I was gonna ask you who you put in the penalty box, but I'll forego that that question now 

David Auerbach: share the names with you.

I'm just trying to be very fair and balanced and respectful to those guys that are going 

Manus Clancy: through some of those issues. Let's ask the question a a different way. Aside from excess leverage, what do you see among those in the penalty box that would represent bad behavior right now? What would put people in that D minus class when you're doing your metrics?

Give me three or four things that would put a, you know, a, a scarlet letter on a company based on things that you see. That's a great question, man. This is good, man. 

David Auerbach: I like this. It all goes back to corporate governance. How shareholder friendly is that company? How approachable is that company in an m and a transaction or a takeover?

There are companies that are out there that make it very, very difficult to engage. It's why activism is rampant across the REIT industry, especially if you're what we call an externally advised REIT companies. Let's say company umbrellas such as Ashford. RMR group, two, two companies to look at as examples.

Not very shareholder friendly in terms of an approach. Okay, that's number one. Number two, how much skin in the game does management have? I like to think that the re, again, focusing on the other 90%, not the bottom 10, but the other 90. How many millions of shares do some of these CEOs, of the s and p 500 REITs, how many shares do some of these guys own?

And the answer is a lot. And why does that matter? Well, if this company raises their dividend by 10% year over year, guess what? His quarterly bonus just went up by 10%. Management teams are on the front lines with their shareholders. It doesn't matter if you're grandma and grandpa in the villages, you're the biggest institutional investor, sovereign wealth fund, whomever that's out there.

That C-E-O-C-F-O frontline management team is right in the trenches with you. And so I think that's something else to look at. But also, where's the properties? Are you in desirable markets or are you in less a desirable market? Do you have a national footprint or a regional footprint or a one city footprint?

And I'm not comparing apples to apples here, but let's, we talk about industrial. You can compare the world of industrial with two different companies in a very simple microscope. You got Prologis, as you mentioned, which is global, right? Versus a rexford industry. That's Elway inland empire focused. One little tiny city, two completely different stories, two completely different performance and everything, but.

Very relevant to investors today, right? Another good example is Blackstone, the private vehicles, the B REITs, the SRE that are out there, I've long said that Blackstone's either gonna be the last man, the last REIT standing, or they're gonna take down the entire industry, and we're all going away because of Blackstone.

But more importantly, Blackstone owns the same quality class, asset types, et cetera, that all of these publicly traded REITs do. Not only that, it's right across the street, literally. And then take it to the market level. I'm in Dallas, Blackstone could be buying office assets in Dallas and selling office assets in Dallas at the same time.

Blackstock could be buying office, Dallas office in Dallas and selling retail in Dallas. They're so big and they're so exposed, again across nationwide that they're telling you where that puck is going. And if you don't believe me, look back at some of these previous transactions that they've done in the past, buying up QTS, the data center read as an example, several years ago because they knew this was a sector that's American campus community student housing.

We have no more publicly trade student. The growth of of universities and university housing continues to grow there in the driver's seat. So for anybody that's ever kind of wondering, where's the world of real estate going, just go pull down the Blackstone letter or the Starwood letter, and they're gonna tell you where it's going because that's where they're invested in.

Manus Clancy: So David, we all know that even the best managers can run into severe headwinds at times. Based on the industry that they're in and and changes to how the world operates. We talked about retail REITs from 10 years ago or so. When it comes to single asset type REITs, so not the Blackstones of the world, but the single property type operators, is there anything you're seeing over the horizon in terms of.

Changes to the US consumer, changes to the economy that you would say investors should be overemphasizing or under emphasizing because of changes to the way the world is moving, you know, in the same way that retail was moving in 2015 or maybe office was changing in 2021. It's a good question. You 

David Auerbach: know, it's a little bit of a layered, complex answer and, and the answer is it's very difficult to observe and let's use tariffs as the perfect example because we, you know, tariffs.

A huge headache in the industry. And I happened to be with some Reed CEOs, right when this was all coming down, like Liberation day, literally. And I'll, I'll use a Reed CEO's words to kind of answer your question. Mr. CEO, how are you? I'm doing great. Company is doing great. Lemme tell you something. If you look at Liberation Day minus one, the actual day and the day after, here's what didn't change for us at the company.

My earnings didn't change over those three days. My leasing didn't change over those three days. My dividend didn't change over those three days. It's business as usual. My stock price is down 30%. What does that advisor, investor, manager know that I don't know when I'm the one that has all the information?

And he brought up a very good point. Because until we actually know what the impact, the effect is, the bottom line, et cetera, it's all speculation. And I think that's, again, goes back to what I mentioned earlier about keeping the blinders on, that these management teams are focusing on the things that are in their control, the keys to grow revenues, the things they can do to cut expenses, et cetera, to try to boost the bottom line.

Whereas all these other macro factors still have to play itself out. So. Why pick on the tariffs? As an example, the actual landlord themselves are not exposed to tariffs. If they're out there buying a new office building, yes, the cost of construction, lumber materials has gone up. Okay? But you own the Empire State Building.

You are not impacted by tariffs on a day-to-day basis. Your tenant is the one who might be exposed to some of these tariff, but you as the landlord. Who has a five to 10 year lease agreement in place with that tenant, uh, basically guaranteed rent. Right? You know, what that income stream is going to be. So it's business as usual, and I think that's the problem is that we get caught up in the day-to-day noise of the headlines without thinking about the long-term lease leases that are in place with some of these companies, with their, uh, underlying tenants that.

It's just, it's, it's extra fodder and noise that gets muddied up because again, is my, I, as the investor focused on the dividend, is my dividend at risk? Did your revenue suddenly decline by 10, 20, 30%, which means your profits are gonna decline by an exponential amount, which may potentially put your dividend at risk.

Okay, we need to talk. But if it's business as usual and you just raised your dividend in the face of what's going on, the fundamentals are pretty solid. So I think that's the key thing here, is that with REITs being long-term investment in vehicles, getting a loss in the day-to-day noise does no good.

When you're looking at a REIT investment, REITs are not meant to be day traded or owned for a couple of weeks, a couple of months you buy a REIT for with a 25 to 50 year time horizon of your investment. 

Martha Coacher: David, what is a market signal that you're watching that you think others might be missing? 

David Auerbach: So I personally look at the 10 year treasury in relation to the Fed Fund's interest rate, but the 10 year treasury versus REITs.

If REITs are quote unquote fixed income vehicles because of the dividend stream that they pay out. What's the 10 year treasury doing? And four percent's the magic number. Uh, the reason being, if you market cap weight REIT dividends, the yield's around 4% or so, but if you equal cap weight, everything that's out there, and that includes the small and mid cap REITs, that yield goes higher than 6%.

So as the 10 year trades at 4 25, 4 50, the technical yield is more attractive than the REIT income stream necessarily. So I think that's something to keep an eye on if, and again, it goes back to interest rate policy. This is not me saying it. There's enough stories that are out there and enough research that backs it.

The talking heads are saying that the dot plots, whatever you wanna follow, are pricing in literally a 100% chance of a rate cut at the September Fed meeting coming up here. Does it happen? By and large, the answer is yes. We may know more from Chairman Powell tomorrow in Jackson Hole, blah, blah, blah. Okay.

The first cut's basically already priced into the market. 25 is basically priced, and if they cut 50, that's great, whatever. But here's the other side of the coin. We already know a new Fed chairperson is coming in who's going to be very aggressive on interest rate policy. You have be on TV in the past couple weeks saying don't cut 25 or 50.

150, I mean, an extreme moot. What's gonna happen if they do cut a hundred basis points or 150 basis points over the next five, six meetings into 26 fed funds? Rate goes down. The tr, the 10 year treasury rate goes down. Re yields only become more attractive. It's business as usual. I don't wanna say REITs are going to the moon, but you should see a general sentiment pickup in the industry.

And by the way. We have enough signposts that are out there showing sentiment is changing. How so? One, the REITs have raised tens of billions of dollars of new debt capital in the past couple of months. The lending window is wide open for REITs to borrow money if they want to. Two, we're seeing a pickup in m and a.

You're seeing transactions of Go privates, unsolicited offers, activism, forcing conversations. You're seeing movements three. Berkshire just released their portfolio, their updated holdings last week. Why am I mentioning Berkshire? They disclosed a stake in Lamar. Advertising of outdoor billboard reads, everybody picked up on Berkshire's bet in home builders and what they're doing in the world of home builders, but they didn't mention buffet owning Lamar advertising.

This is only the second time that they've been on record owning publicly traded REITs. The first time they owned a REIT called Store Capital, which is a net lease REIT based out of Arizona that they wound up buying a 10% stake in the company. They actually physically bought the company. Number two, a famous REIT story in the industry involves Warren Buffett.

Here's what we will kind of lighten the mood here a little bit. Back in like 19 98, 19 99, Warren Buffet did a charity auction and he auctioned off his wallet. Buy Warren Buffet's wallet and inside the wallet to the winning bidder was a piece of paper. And on that piece of paper was two letters, a stock ticker and the stock ticker that he chose.

Do you guys know what it is? Before I ruined the story, the stock ticker he picked, man, you keep talking about the sector. You're lucky today. It's your lucky. It was first industrial. The ticker was.

Berkshire Warren Buffet knows REITs, and again, like I said, he's a long-term investor. He's, they, they buy industries again, you know the buffet philosophy and a lot of these REITs kind of meet up with the buffet philosophy. 

Manus Clancy: Hopefully it wasn't one of those George Costanza while that's where you had a phish through 75 different things before you got to that ticker.

But that, that's a great story. I love that. 

Martha Coacher: Last question. Any tools or resources you'd recommend for people who wanna learn more and get smarter on real estate investment trust, David? 

David Auerbach: Sure. So the first thing I would start is go to reit.com, R eitt.com. That's neit, the National Association of Real Estate Investment Trusts.

That's the main REIT industry website. Great educational tools and resources on there. From a REIT 1 0 1 perspective, there's REIT education classes that are out there. I'm on the board of advisors of a platform called REIT Academy, so if you, again, you want like a, kind of like a crash course, six, seven week program, learning about the history of REITs, our research brand at Hoya Capital covers 200 publicly traded REITs.

All these sectors kind of have niches to them and it's again, trying to figure out. Who's the best of the best because even again, in some of these troubled sectors and stories that are out there, there's still some winners that, you know, we focus on that don't get the attention because again, it's the other story that's drawing all the headlines.

Martha Coacher: Thank you, David, for joining us today on the CRE Weekly Digest. Dianne will be back next week. Thanks to our producer Josh Bruyning. Please join us every week as LightBox shares CRE News and data in context. Subscribe and share this episode with your colleagues in commercial reals. And send your comments to podcast@LightBoxre.com.

Thank you for listening and have a great week. Let's 

Manus Clancy: go.